I couldn't believe this was real and had to download the Watchtower to confirm. Un-freaking-believable. Hilarious. How did this get through?
Eiben Scrood
JoinedPosts by Eiben Scrood
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"They will make your life miserable for as long as you will allow them to."
by leavingwt inbelow is a comment on a recent thread at jwr, and i wanted to share it.
obviously, every situation is different, but for many situations, i believe there is some wisdom in this advice.. ---------------.
they will make your life miserable for as long as you will allow them too.
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Eiben Scrood
Very wise words. It's easier said than done I'm finding. I just have to do it though.
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60
What Do You Say or Is It Better to Saying Nothing?
by Eiben Scrood ini miss some of my old watchtower friendships.
usually i can just put the people out of my mind but when a big event comes up like me expecting my first child, i did reach out a bit.
this one friend in particular was kind of like an older brother to me.
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Eiben Scrood
leavingwt - you nailed it. High horse indeed. Anyway, I'm done. I don't plan on ever communicating with him again. He can stay in his little cult and raise his two sons to be culties too. The Watchtower ends another friendship.
His reply:
It is good to hear your ideas but for me all those points don't make the a difference. It doesn't change the fundamental truths we get from his organization. We know ideas will change since the Bible points out the light will grow brighter and brighter as the day draws nearer. I expect there to be other changes as well down the road. If they didn't, then that would be an issue. The folks Jehovah has always used over the ages had flaws. David didn't go against the organization, he fled and waited until Jehovah took care of the issues. He didn't leave his organization, he still observed Jehovah's laws and stuck with Him. Many of Jesus's disciples left Jesus because they didn't like what he said about drinking his blood but his apostles stuck with him stating where else can we find the saying of everlasting life.
So ok you are 100% sure Jehovah isn't using the watchtower organization. I assume you have sent the elders notification that you don't what to be associated as a Witness. I know I wouldn't what to be associated with something I know to be 100% wrong such as still being considered a Catholic.
So which organization are you convinced God is using? Which organization is educating His people? Is someone else out there doing the preaching work about God's Kingdom? When you find that organization let me know. I guess they will be knocking on my door. As they say, happy hunting.
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60
What Do You Say or Is It Better to Saying Nothing?
by Eiben Scrood ini miss some of my old watchtower friendships.
usually i can just put the people out of my mind but when a big event comes up like me expecting my first child, i did reach out a bit.
this one friend in particular was kind of like an older brother to me.
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Eiben Scrood
The thing is, with the exception of the NGO issue, all of this is pretty much stuff I came up with on my own long before I ever got on the internet. I'm hoping that he can tell that I'm not just parroting someone.
I feel like I at least defended myself and my choices.
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What Do You Say or Is It Better to Saying Nothing?
by Eiben Scrood ini miss some of my old watchtower friendships.
usually i can just put the people out of my mind but when a big event comes up like me expecting my first child, i did reach out a bit.
this one friend in particular was kind of like an older brother to me.
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Eiben Scrood
Thanks for all the feedback and warnings guys. I think I gave a tempered reply as I waited to cool off some. Here is what I said:
There are many things that bothered me about the organization for a long time. I wrote the Society a number of times and didn’t receive satisfactory replies. The truth is that it’s an organization obsessed with figures. A person’s “spirituality” is measured in numbers. For example, elders and ministerial servants are expected to average 10 hours per month. That figure is what counts. Does it matter if that time is spent riding around doing return visits on opposite ends of the territory? No. It’s that number that is important. I’ll never forget a circuit assembly I went to in 2002 where the district overseer there was obsessed with the theme of whether the publishers are meeting the national average. I left totally disgusted. That is not the kind of Christian love that Jesus talked about.
I was always bothered by the way people’s lives are played with by changing beliefs. They want to have it both ways. If it’s in the Watchtower, then you must accept it as coming from Jehovah but when that belief is changed a few years later, then it’s simply excused as old light and often the rank and file are blamed for reading too much into things. I have seen the effects the 1975 doctrine and the generation teaching have had on people. When I was in my teens, I personally read a lot of the older bound volumes and I was flabbergasted at some of the things I read. The hype was enormous. I’ve heard speakers sent out by the governing body that hyped it even more than what was in the literature. I remember a conversation I had with my mother about whether I should seek any additional education after high school and we figured out the numbers based on the old generation teaching and agreed that it didn’t make sense. Then, poof, it gets changed. No apology, no acknowledgement of the havoc it caused people. Then it gets changed AGAIN in 2008 and yet AGAIN in 2010!!!!!!!
I remember asking my mother as a little kid why the name Jehovah appears so infrequently in the Greek scriptures. She didn’t really have much of an answer. The fact is whole books don’t contain it even in the NWT. Some research shows that many of the times it is inserted into the NWT, it is for dubious reasons at best. The organization puts so much emphasis on that name and yet inspired writers saw fit to not even include it in whole letters. Jesus only used the name when quoting the Hebrew scriptures. Something is not right with this.
Again, I have another recollection. The September 8, 1991 I found to be very interesting at the time. It was all about the UN and it spoke about astounding things that would be done by the UN soon. Absent, however, was a single word about God’s kingdom. Now, to JWs, it would be inferred as to what might have been implied behind those words but for those unfamiliar with the teachings, an entirely different picture would be presented. It turns out that the Watchtower had a clandestine 10 year affair with the UN as an NGO beginning shortly after this in 1992. It continued until October 2001 when the newspaper the Guardian outed the Watchtower which withdrew the very next month. To qualify as an NGO, an organization had to promote the UN and its interests. That is exactly what the Watchtower did beginning with that egregious September article. The Society no doubt joined for human rights purposes but can you imagine what Jehovah would think of such a partnership? Just look up in the CD-ROM the number of articles about the UN during that 10 year period. They admitted it was wrong to be part of it when they withdrew but why did it take public exposure to bring this about?
My parents were very good people. My mother was a total Watchtower believer with no questions asked. My dad was another story, however. He questioned things. I would see question marks in the margins of his studied publications. We talked about stuff. There are a great many unanswered questions particularly in regards to prophecy. I would be glad to provide you specific examples if you like. The books of Daniel, Isaiah, Joel and Revelation in particular contain glaring errors in the Watchtower’s exegesis of them.
You mention Korah, what about David? He was going against the organization at the time. He was a hunted outcast.
The whole blood situation makes zero sense. It should be strictly a conscience issue but instead certain fractions are allowed to be taken. Where do those fractions come from? From donated blood! Yet, Witnesses are not allowed to donate or store their own blood. If blood is supposed to be poured on the ground, how can use of donated and stored blood be acceptable? Like I said, the entire decision on whether to take whole blood or fractions should be up to one’s conscience but for the Watchtower to go that route now would expose them to an untold number of lawsuits.
This really only scratches the surface of things. Please remember, you brought up religion. I just wanted to announce the happy news of the coming birth of my son. I have considered you a good friend for a long time and wanted to share this with you. I had no desire to stumble you or dissuade you in any way. I felt like you were pressing for more reasons for my dissatisfaction with the Watchtower organization so felt obligated to let you know some of my reasons.
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60
What Do You Say or Is It Better to Saying Nothing?
by Eiben Scrood ini miss some of my old watchtower friendships.
usually i can just put the people out of my mind but when a big event comes up like me expecting my first child, i did reach out a bit.
this one friend in particular was kind of like an older brother to me.
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Eiben Scrood
Two months later he finally got back to me. Here was his reply:
I got really busy and didn't get the time earlier to responding to your last email.
If we believe the Bible to be God's word which the overwhelming evidence indicates, we can't pick and choose what we want to believe or not. The idea that we can choose what is right or wrong is exactly what God's adversaries is arguing. I personally don't agree with the demons. Sure we may feel guilt due to our sinful inclinations but that is ok since we have a compass, our conscience and the standards laid out in God's word. Growing up is hard and living in a self indulgent world doesn't make it easy, that isn't the Watchtower's fault. The fact is that Jehovah continues to use the Watchtower organization, the faithful and discreet slave class. What is being accomplished world wide it truly remarkable and your father and mother were part of that work. No other organization in the world is doing the preaching work, declaring God's Kingdom, on the scale it is being accomplished. They are feeding the Truths and taking care of God's people spiritually. Look how much knowledge your parents had about the Bible and compare that with any priest from any other organization. Your parents could run circles around anyone of them. That knowledge comes from Jehovah's organization. Taking issue with the organization or siding with those that are I don't think is always wise. I think about Korah and the 250 men who didn't agree with Moses and spoke out against him. Jehovah was certainly not happy because they ignored the evidence that he was using Moses. (Numbers 16:) So you need to be 100% sure if you don't think Jehovah is using the Watchtower organization. You will need to find the organization Jehovah is using because at Mat 24:45 it makes it clear that there is a faith and discreet slave class. You can look all you want but you will not find it other then Jehovah's organization.
Math 24:45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings
The scripture you listed are all true but the reasoning is the same I hear from the apostates, from the gay community, from most Christian organizations. God is love and the Christ died for all our sins therefore all we need to do is be happy and live a good life and God will save us. Nice, so we now think God is a chump, we can do and live your lives as we see fit and God will just save us. Somehow now thru Christ's death, God serves us? I just don't buy it. The fact is only Noah and his family got on the ark. Jesus made it clear few are the ones finding the path that leads to life since the majority are on the road to destruction.
Matt 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
Math 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
Math 24:38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
1 Cor 6:9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom.
There are many more scripts showing God expects to be worshiped the way he wants to be worshiped, not by our own ideas, or the ideas of the demons. It is not an a la carte menu.
My point is you know better and I expect better reasonings from you. If folks don't want to worship Jehovah than that is just fine but be honest. Jesus preached and did awesome things but why was it that the majority didn't want to follow him? It was because they just didn't what to change, they wanted to live the life they wanted. Was it that folks didn't want the promises? Sure who wouldn't but are they really going to get it? Jehovah has certainly given us the freedom for now. It is up to us to express our willingness to serve him.
I felt I had to say what I had to say because one day I hope to see your parents whom we both loved dearly. I wouldn't be happy with myself if I didn't say I tried.
Wakeup and do some real thinking. ;-)
I'm still digesting it. I tried to be kind in my original reply and not burst his Watchtower bubble. Now I'm preparing to bring out the big guns and blow a hole through his cult. I'm insulted that he said he expected better reasoning from me. Well, if he wants it, he's going to get it.
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60
What Do You Say or Is It Better to Saying Nothing?
by Eiben Scrood ini miss some of my old watchtower friendships.
usually i can just put the people out of my mind but when a big event comes up like me expecting my first child, i did reach out a bit.
this one friend in particular was kind of like an older brother to me.
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Eiben Scrood
Franklin - believe me, I didn't want to get into any religious banter. He brought it up and hopefully it will never surface again.
Part of the reason I wanted to make some kind of reply is because of what you mentioned in your last statement. I didn't want him to think that now I was going to ignore *him* because he still is enslaved. I'd rather take the chance about making waves than do that. I'd like him to know that I would be very willing to keep at least some kind of friendship, agreeing to just never discuss religion. I know this is very hard to do in Watchtower circles but it's not going to be from my end. I'm not hellbent on stumbling him and pulling him out of the cult. I genuinely like him as a person and I hope that he will gather that from my replies and the fact that I contacted him initially.
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60
What Do You Say or Is It Better to Saying Nothing?
by Eiben Scrood ini miss some of my old watchtower friendships.
usually i can just put the people out of my mind but when a big event comes up like me expecting my first child, i did reach out a bit.
this one friend in particular was kind of like an older brother to me.
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Eiben Scrood
Just to clarify, my initial reaction was to take him on full blast and address his points. The comments in this thread definitely made me rethink and that is shown in my reply to him posted above.
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60
What Do You Say or Is It Better to Saying Nothing?
by Eiben Scrood ini miss some of my old watchtower friendships.
usually i can just put the people out of my mind but when a big event comes up like me expecting my first child, i did reach out a bit.
this one friend in particular was kind of like an older brother to me.
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Eiben Scrood
I respect the view that I may be taking a risk but I just can't say nothing. It's just not my nature as I'm a very open person. I don't sense he will make trouble for me. I guess will see. I think my reply was balanced. There is a bit of BS in there.
My reply:
You raise some good points. I guess I just don't see things as black and white anymore. I definitely plan on telling my son of my firm belief in a Creator and also Jesus' role in matters. I don't have the best memories of having grown up in the Watchtower organization. I don't want my son to grow up with the guilt that I did. I want him to use his own thinking to decide the best course for himself whatever that might be. I can assure you that he will be loved unconditionally. I respect that you are happy in the organization and I wish you and your family the best. I agree that there are many truths. I also feel that much is left to be revealed as you alluded to somewhat. I think of 1 Corinthians 13:12: "For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known." I definitely still have faith and I take comfort from scriptures like these: "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." - Romans 5:18
" He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. " - 1 John 2:2
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people." - 1 Timothy 2:5,6
I'll have to pass along a few photos once ... has made his entrance into the world! Your friend,
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60
What Do You Say or Is It Better to Saying Nothing?
by Eiben Scrood ini miss some of my old watchtower friendships.
usually i can just put the people out of my mind but when a big event comes up like me expecting my first child, i did reach out a bit.
this one friend in particular was kind of like an older brother to me.
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Eiben Scrood
Wow, punkofnice, did they really say this?:
'mind cleansed' (WT 1st June '53 pg 350 para 24)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you have a more complete quote? That is egregious even by Watchtower standards.
It really helps to hear so much good advice. It's giving me a lot to think about especially because it's coming from those who understand but who aren't emotionally tied to the "friendship".
Thank you all.